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loic
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 01, 2024 11:54    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

On ne parle pas forcément d'un remplacement de la propulsion.
Et cette étude de 1939 est rendue caduque par les impératifs de guerre, notamment le besoin en escorteurs.
Sauf si les 2xBB + 2xBC français se retrouvent du côté de l'Axe, les mises en service annoncées des classe KGV suffisent à damer le pion aux Allemands + Italiens.
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 01, 2024 11:58    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sauf que la propulsion était, sinon à bout de bord, du moins très fatiguée, d'une part, et que le remplacement aurait permis un substantiel gain de poids, nécessaire pour les modifications projetées, d'autre part.
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 01, 2024 13:28    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

À Wings de décider, c'est son histoire...
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 01, 2024 16:59    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

loic a écrit:
Citation:
Raeder a été viré apres le désastre Norvégien et Albrecht sorti de la retraite pour sortir la KM d'un énorme pétrin.

Le désastre est à peine plus important qu'OTL et Raeder n'avait pas été viré pour autant, ni après la perte du Bismarck. En réalité, Hitler ne s'intéresse pas tellement à la chose navale, mais il comprend que les sous-marins peuvent faire du mal à ses ennemis à moindre frais. Un remplacement (anticipé du coup, par rapport à OTL) par Dönitz serait plus logique.

Merci pour l'info sur le Hood. Je suis comme Fregaton, je plaide pour une refonte légère (propulsion, radars et remplacement des canons si besoin). Le navire n'est pas été mis hors de combat, il est donc hors de question de s'en priver pendant quasiment 3 ans alors qu'en mai 1941 c'est encore l'Axe qui se trouve sur une pente ascendante.
S'il avait été "crippled" (deux tourelles principales détruites et non pas juste une "disabled"), alors cela aurait valu le coup, comme ce qui est arrivé aux vieux cuirassés touchés sévèrement pendant la 2e GM.
La RN va faire avec le Hood ce qu'elle a fait avec les autres unités datant de la 1ère GM => l'user jusqu'à la corde.
Par ailleurs, tous les docks de la GB sont utilisés 100% du temps. Si tu pars sur cette option, il faudra probablement sacrifier un des grands porte-avions à venir.
Mais je n'y crois pas : en 1941, la construction navale est 100% focus sur les escorteurs de toute sorte (DD, DE, corvettes...).


Le désastre était beaucoup plus grave qu'OTL! Ils ont perdu toutes leurs unités lourdes...voir le Chapitre 12.

Pour le Hood, merci, c'est noté, mais on parle aussi du joyau de la Royal Navy, donc il y a des impératifs dits "politiques" pour que le Hood continue de naviguer, meme apres-guerre.
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 05, 2024 06:25    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Chapter 33: Operation Barbarossa – Sundered Sky (June – July 1941)

While the Soviet Union would later deny it in later years, it and Germany had been extremely close ever since the days of the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact. From the joint parades in Polish streets to the numerous trade agreements and even a negotiation of a Soviet entry into the Axis pact, the two countries enjoyed warm relations. However, with growing German appetite in the East, these relations had somewhat cooled, but Stalin, in Moscow, did not fear anything.

The Germans were already fighting a war against the British Empire, still hadn’t kicked the Allied powers from Europe, and had lost almost all of their fighting navy in the opening months of the war. Besides, the Soviet army was the largest and best in the world, and sheer numbers would easily defeat any German invasion. To prove this point, the difficulty in which Germany had in defeating the Low Countries, Norway, France or even Greece were testament to this. No, Stalin was so confident that when German soldiers defected to the Soviets warning them of the invasion, they were executed!
However, on the other side, things had been ramping up to this moment for a long time. The invasion of the Soviet Union had been planned by the Germans ever since the fall of France, and nothing would stop them from putting them in motion. And while certain officials warned of the sheer titanic effort this would require, Hitler brushed them off. The Soviets would not take long to fall. “One good kick and the whole rotten structure would come falling down”, was the prevalent mood. And then, the addition of many fertile territories such as the Ukraine would do a lot of good to the German economy, under blockade by Britain. Not to mention the Baku oil fields… [1]

And, of course, there was the sense of needing to do a crusade. Against the Jews, the Slavs, the barbarians living in the eastern border. These populations would have to be eradicated, displaced or killed, and replaced with German colonies and administrators, so that they could feed and work for the Master Race [2]. And the economists who pointed out that occupying these territories would be a burden to the Reich were, of course, dismissed as foolish or even downright traitorous [3].

To achieve this massive endeavour, Germany had to call on all its available divisions. The Luftwaffe was ordered to focus solely on Barbarossa, turning away from the Greek front where reinforcements could’ve maybe broken the aerial stalemate with the Allies. In addition, Germany would receive the support of its Allies: Finns to the north, Slovakia and Hungary and Romania in Army Group South. The latter were included in Barbarossa in order to make up for German losses in France and divisions that needed to be placed on the Greek front.

On June 22nd, 1941, the Germans finally put their plan into motion. Before the first tanks had even crossed the border, swarms of German aircraft wandered into Soviet airspace, alongside a few Hungarian and Romanian Bf-109s. Completely taken by surprise, the Soviet air force was absolutely dismantled. The few patrols that managed to take off were hacked to pieces by the Germans, though they fought hard and with the energy of despair each time. The VVS, reacting late, ordered their units to react against the Axis air forces almost as individual aircraft, without coordination. The results were devastating. By the end of the day, the Soviet Union had lost almost three thousand aircraft, against a mere thirty to forty for the attackers. And that number would continue to climb in the following days…

On the ground, it was much of the same. Completely taken by surprise, the Red Army was swept out of the field on every axis of attack. Contrarily to what some may think, though, the Red Army did not completely rout. Rather, it stood its ground, and even counter-attacked in some instances. For example, at Raisenai, in Lithuania, the troops of the 6th and 4th Panzer Divisions were faced with an armored assault that caught them off-guard. The Red Army had deployed over 700 tanks to drive a wedge in the German forces, with some KV heavy tanks even managing to reach the German rear! It must be said that the Germans themselves were surprised by the robustness of the KVs, which proved a match for a lot of their own Panzers. This did not mean that they were invulnerable, as the tanks were eventually destroyed, but at the cost of valuable time for the German armor. The local pyrrhic success at Raisenai could not be exploited as the German troops threatened an encirclement, forcing the tanks to withdraw to Kaunas after leaving as many as three quarters of their armored vehicles on the field.

In the Baltic area, though, was a man with a plan. Erwin Rommel had been reprimanded for his hot-headedness in France, but he was now looking at ways to redeem himself. Launched at the head of his Baltischer Korps, the general was assigned under the 4th Panzer Army, alongside Von Manstein and Reinhardt. With two Panzer Divisions under his command, the general flanked Kaunas and Vilnius, outrunning and outmanoeuvring the Soviet 11th Army of general Morozov. Rommel’s actions managed to trap the Soviet 11th Army under the Dvina River, where Von Manstein had managed to establish a bridgehead. The encirclement of the Soviet 11th Army along the Drina would prove disastrous for the Soviets, who would lose a major fighting force that would be needed for the fights around Leningrad [4].

In the meantime, the 4th Panzer Army continued to dash along the Baltic states, welcomed by a quite generally friendly population. Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian flags were brought out…until they were burnt down and replaced with the swastika flag. Manstein, Reinhardt and Rommel were thus free to run straight towards Leningrad without much opposition. At the end of the month of July, the German Panzers were within reach of Leningrad, but needed to rest. In essence however, Ostland had been conquered, and Novgorod had fallen [5].

In the centre, while things were going well, it was not exactly going as well as expected. Of course, most of Belarussia had been wiped clean. Brest had been completely encircled, allowing for the annihilation of the Soviet forces there. While Soviet propaganda would boast the feats of the “hero fortress” after the war, stating that it had held for 32 days, in reality it only held for a week. And in the meantime, German forces were already driving deep into Belarussian territory, in two large pincers that threatened to envelop the entire Soviet device. And these pincers would soon close at the end of the month, trapping about half a million soldiers near Minsk and Białystok. On June 26th and 28th, these two cities fell. The Soviet 3rd, 10th and 13th armies had ceased to exist. However, this came at a high cost for the Germans who had to mop up these encirclements, and who had to rest before resuming offensive operations.

These losses were not much of a consolation for the head of the Belarussian Front, general Pavlov. Accused of having withdrawn without giving battle, and for having attended a comedy in Kiev rather than commanding at the front, he was executed along with his chief of staff and his head of communications.

The week delay in the resumption of offensive operations had frustrated the German generals, but by July, they were once again on their way towards Smolensk, which could be used as a bridgehead towards Moscow. Mogilev was encircled by the SS Das Reich Division, but fierce resistance at Smolensk blunted the until then unstoppable German advance. Not to mention the stubborn resistance of the encircled troops at Mogilev, who refused to bend under the German pressure. Soviet counter-offensives to re-establish a link with the city failed, but so did Heinz Guderian’s frontal attacks on the city. At the cost of high casualties, the 17th Panzer Division did break into the city, but without the fanfare that it previously had in Minsk or Vitebsk. This time, there was brutal house to house fighting, and while the Germans emerged victorious, they failed to establish a bridgehead on the Desna. A pause was thus ordered, with Guderian wishing to drive east over the Dniepr towards Vyazma. However, in the Ukraine, things were not going as well, and Hitler would order Guderian to divert his forces southwards. Something that Guderian never truly forgave him for…but the delay in carrying out these orders would also cost his Panzers dearly… [6]

In the Ukraine, things were not going as well as elsewhere for the Germans. While the Front commander, Mikhail Kirponos, was just as shocked about the German invasion as elsewhere, and without clear intelligence on the enemy forces, he was also more resourceful than his northern colleague, Pavlov. After the initial shock, Kirponos, under the orders of the STAVKA, counter-attacked along the front. These counter-attacks were launched at the corps level, but were at least partially organised and had specific objectives. Despite this, they failed one after the other, as their forces were annihilated by the German, but also Hungarian and Romanian forces. However, Kirponos did encounter local success, with some divisions wreaking havoc on the German rear, which forced the offensive to slow down and Soviet infantry to withdraw. T-34 and KV tanks proved deadly, and delayed the German advance for almost a week, so much so that the Hungarians were called to plug in the gaps in the shocked German lines in certain cases.

Despite the Soviet armoured forces being shattered, STAVKA commander Zhukov ordered Kirponos to strike again, with the forces he had. Kirponos vigorously objected, saying that this attack would destabilize the whole front, but had to comply. In the end, these attacks would just gnaw at the Soviets even further. This failure prompted Kirponos to be removed as Front commander and replaced by Semyon Budyonny. This one was completely ineffective, and when the German Panzers broke out towards Uman, reacted with no real cohesion or plan. Instead, he let the Germans and Hungarians run towards the south, and encircle three more Soviet armies. The Soviets attempted to break out, but were met with failure. Von Rundstedt had managed to outsmart Budyonny and move his Panzers on his rear faster than he could redeploy reinforcements. Commanders of the encircled divisions asked to break out towards the southeast, but were met with rebuttals wishing for them to break out towards the east, where the German lines were strongest. Instead, the German-Hungarian Panzers ground the Soviet units down, though a good chunk would resist until August, delaying the German advance.

Kirponos, for his part, had taken charge of the defense of Kiev. The city was put under a state of siege, ready to receive the German attack. With the charge on Uman, though, the Panzers were busy at work elsewhere, and Kirponos’ preparations of the city had made the Germans weary. Indeed, Von Rundstedt noticed that the defenses of the city were galvanized and that sending troops would be akin to leading lambs to the slaughter. Kiev could not be assaulted, and one of the initial objectives of Barbarossa was finally checked. The Soviets thus had time to protect the flank of the Ukrainian city, around Gomel and along the Dniepr.

Zhukov, seeing the German advance, advised Stalin to retreat to the Dniepr, thus past Kiev. When confronted with the possibility of abandoning the city to the Germans without a fight, Stalin rebuked Zhukov. Frustrated, the latter dared Stalin to send him to a frontline unit if he did not consider his advice valid. Though he escaped the front, Zhukov was demoted and sent to the reserves, leaving general Shaposhnikov in command as chief of the Red Army.

Despite these misgivings, Kirponos did his best in Kiev. Taking advantage of the German fatigue, he blocked an attempt at creating a bridgehead on the Dniepr to the south of the city, and managed to hold Korosten with the help of Vlasov’s 37th Army. Suddenly, the Germans became much wearier of the threat Kiev posed to their position. A dagger ready to strike at the heart of their device, but also a golden opportunity to encircle more than a million Soviet troops… [7]
Finally, at the very south of the device, the Romanians launched their offensive. Aiming to retake Bessarabia, the forces of the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies rushed towards Chernivtsi, capturing it on July 5th. Supported by the Germans of the 11th Army, the Romanians used their German-made Panzers to good effect: with their own sweeping strike, they rushed to Chisinau, then the Dniestr, shocking the Soviets with their fast breakthrough. The Romanians managed to obtain a bridgehead on the Dniestr, and seized Tiraspol. Their air force, which overwhelmed the Soviet one, supported the Romanian operations and even aided the German forces at Uman.

This quick breakthrough allowed Romanian forces to swiftly encircle Odessa, and even take the port by surprise. With the breakthrough along the Dniestr, most of the Soviet forces did not have time to properly withdraw towards the port city. As a result, the Odessa Military District was essentially wiped out. The 9th Army was annihilated on the banks of the Black Sea, while the 12th and 18th Army would be encircled in the Uman pockets, further north. Only a token force called the “Coastal Army” would manage to resist in Odessa, and would make the Romanians pay as they entered the city. However, it could only delay so much, and the city would fall to the Romanians on September 16th, 1941.

And it was not only on land that the Romanians were winning, but also at sea. On June 26th, the Soviets organized a raid on the Romanian port of Constanța, but was met with abject failure. The Soviet force, comprising of the cruiser Voroshilov and four destroyers, shelled the port, before being attacked by…Romanian destroyers. The destroyers, along with fire from coastal batteries, pushed the Soviets into a minefield, which the Moskva ran into head first. The vessel quickly sank, forcing the rest to withdraw. But the Romanians were not done, as while an air battle was going on, a formation of Romanian Ju 87 pursued the Soviet fleet with cover provided by Romanian Air Force IAR-80s. Not used to bombing ships, the Romanians missed most of their shots, but were helped since the Voroshilov had to reduce speed because of damage done by one of the mines. The cruiser, struck by four bombs, sunk around noon, with most of its crew recovered by the Soviet destroyers.

This was not the only Romanian naval victory, as a few days later, the Soviet submarine Shch-206 would be sunk by the old torpedo boat Năluca. On August 15th, the Romanian submarine Delfinul would sink the old Soviet destroyer Dzerzhinsky which carried supplies into Odessa. Despite some heavy losses, the Romanian Army had commended itself well in Bessarabia and southern Ukraine, and helped the Germans achieve their objectives in the south. They would thus be redeployed towards Nikolayev (today Mykolaiv) for the upcoming invasion of Crimea [8].

In conclusion, Barbarossa had succeeded beyond the Germans’ wildest dreams. But the operation was not over, and it would now be time for them to rush even further east.

[1] No one dared to mention that the Germans wouldn’t have the necessary tools to repair the devastated oil fields even if they did come to take them.
[2] This plan was known as the infamous “Generalplan Ost”. The goal was no less than the genocide of more than sixty million people.
[3] For fear of Hitler’s wrath, many reports, notably by general Thomas, were falsified to present things according to Hitler’s way. The initial reports, though, did not look good for the German economy, even if the Ukraine and the Baku oil fields were seized without damage…
[4] OTL Manstein and Reinhardt failed to encircle large numbers of Soviet troops due to the 11th Army’s hasty retreat. Not the case here as Rommel outmanoeuvres them.
[5] So things here are actually going better for the Germans. No Soviet 11th Army means no counter-attack at Soltsy, and the Soviets cannot defend Leningrad as well as they did in OTL. Rommel’s force essentially stands in for an 8th Panzer weakened after losses in the Battle of France.
[6] Things go about as OTL for the Germans until Smolensk. A bloodier battle means that the 10th Panzer Division, already bled on the Western Front, cannot break out on the Desna and the Germans are now vulnerable to a Soviet counter-attack on Smolensk.
[7] Things go slightly better than OTL on this front, with slightly more effective Soviet counter-attacks and the prevention of a bridgehead on the Dniepr. Kiev is still threatened, but the Germans haven’t reached Korosten yet. Uman still happens, but because of the delay of the Panzers, the Soviets can save some troops.
[8] Minor nations do better here. Romania beefed up with more modern tanks and aircraft means a more decisive victory along the Dniestr and a more rapid encirclement of forces at Odessa which means no drawn out siege and no 9th Army capable of defending the port up until October.
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"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 05, 2024 08:01    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Avec une campane de Grèce plus difficile, en particulier pour la Luftwaffe, je ne vois pas comment la date du 22 juin peut être maintenue.
Les PanzerDivisions qui ont souffert lors de la campagne de France auront largement eu le temps d'être remises à niveau (et de nouvelles divisions créées).
Par contre, avec une campagne de France et de Grèce plus difficile, je ne vois pas comment l'Allemagne pourrait fournir plus de matériel aux Roumains et Hongrois.
La nature du terrain en Bessarabie (nombreuses rivières et limans) empêchent par nature une prise rapide d'Odessa.

Tu parles de la Finlande : comment ça se passe de ce côté ?
Que fait le flotte soviétique de Baltique ?

Question annexe : est-ce que tu fais une simulation papier ou informatique des opérations ou est-ce juste une rédaction sur un plan conçu à l'avance ?
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 05, 2024 17:49    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

loic a écrit:
Avec une campane de Grèce plus difficile, en particulier pour la Luftwaffe, je ne vois pas comment la date du 22 juin peut être maintenue.
Les PanzerDivisions qui ont souffert lors de la campagne de France auront largement eu le temps d'être remises à niveau (et de nouvelles divisions créées).
Par contre, avec une campagne de France et de Grèce plus difficile, je ne vois pas comment l'Allemagne pourrait fournir plus de matériel aux Roumains et Hongrois.
La nature du terrain en Bessarabie (nombreuses rivières et limans) empêchent par nature une prise rapide d'Odessa.

Tu parles de la Finlande : comment ça se passe de ce côté ?
Que fait le flotte soviétique de Baltique ?

Question annexe : est-ce que tu fais une simulation papier ou informatique des opérations ou est-ce juste une rédaction sur un plan conçu à l'avance ?


Plusieurs réponses a cela:
- La Campagne de Grece a été plus difficile justement car Hitler a refusé d'y engager une bonne partie de la Luftwaffe promise a Barbarossa.
- Les Hongrois et Roumains ont été réarmés pré-Marita, mais post-France.
- Pour Odessa je trouverais autre chose.
- La Finlande aura son propre chapitre.

Tout ca, c'est une rédaction d'un plan concu a l'avance et dont tous les détails ne sont pas totalement rédigés ou prévus a l'avance.
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 05, 2024 19:05    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Wings a écrit:
- La Campagne de Grece a été plus difficile justement car Hitler a refusé d'y engager une bonne partie de la Luftwaffe promise a Barbarossa.
- Les Hongrois et Roumains ont été réarmés pré-Marita, mais post-France.

Avec une RAF plus forte (mieux installée) en en ajoutant les Français, si la LW n'y avait pas mis une certaine force, la Heer n'aurait jamais pu progresser comme elle l'a fait dans ce genre de terrain (semi-)montagneux.
Par conséquent, les pertes aériennes allemandes sont lourdes voire très lourdes. Si le report n'a pas lieu pour reconstituer les groupes aériens, c'est la Blitzkrieg face à l'URSS qui ne peut plus fonctionner !

Encore une fois : avec quel matériel sont réarmés les Roumains et Hongrois, alors que la Heer a subi plus de pertes et par ailleurs va pratiquement doubler le nombre de ses PanzerDivisions avant Barbarossa ?
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 05, 2024 19:12    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

loic a écrit:
Wings a écrit:
- La Campagne de Grece a été plus difficile justement car Hitler a refusé d'y engager une bonne partie de la Luftwaffe promise a Barbarossa.
- Les Hongrois et Roumains ont été réarmés pré-Marita, mais post-France.

Avec une RAF plus forte (mieux installée) en en ajoutant les Français, si la LW n'y avait pas mis une certaine force, la Heer n'aurait jamais pu progresser comme elle l'a fait dans ce genre de terrain (semi-)montagneux.
Par conséquent, les pertes aériennes allemandes sont lourdes voire très lourdes. Si le report n'a pas lieu pour reconstituer les groupes aériens, c'est la Blitzkrieg face à l'URSS qui ne peut plus fonctionner !

Encore une fois : avec quel matériel sont réarmés les Roumains et Hongrois, alors que la Heer a subi plus de pertes et par ailleurs va pratiquement doubler le nombre de ses PanzerDivisions avant Barbarossa ?


Décision politique plus qu'autre chose. Les divisions Hongroises et Roumaines ont été armées (comme les Finlandais) contre le fait que certaines PzD vont etre mises au repos plus longtemps.

Pour la LW, elle est moins présente qu'OTL mais ca ne change pas grand chose au déroulé des opérations, les conséquences ne commenceront a se manifester qu'au bout du 3e/4e mois d'opérations (vers Aout-Septembre lorsqu'il s'agira de prendre Kiev).
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 05, 2024 19:51    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

La production allemande de chars ne peut pas faire plus qu'OTL, le fait de mettre des PzD au repos n'y change rien.

Si la LW aligne moins d'avions, cela change considérablement la donne. Les Soviétiques avaient énormément d'avions. S'ils peuvent s'en servir, cela va faire très mal (ils ont par exemple envoyé des bombardiers sur l'Allemagne tant qu'ils avaient des terrains à portée).

je pense que tu devrais reconsidérer ces deux points.
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 07, 2024 04:58    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Chapter 34: Operation Barbarossa – Silver Fox (June – December 1941)

Finnish participation in Barbarossa had been a key issue both in Finland and Germany, and Mannerheim knew that he needed to toe a fine line. For if he wanted to retake the lost territories, he also wished to avoid direct conflict with the Allies that a war with the USSR would entail. In addition, parts of his government wished to not escalate the war against the Soviets by invading territories that weren’t Finnish, though Mannerheim knew better: the Germans had conditioned the massive sale of arms for key objectives for the Finns to be taken, which Mannerheim had agreed to. Something Mannerheim had not agreed to, however, was for Finland to commit troops in dense urban environments like Murmansk or Leningrad.

After the plans for Barbarossa were finalized in December 1940, the Finns were made aware of the German intentions as soon as January 1941, and in February the first contacts between Germans and Finns had taken place. However, if the Germans did let the Finns know that the Finnish Army would need to mobilize in mid-June, it did not reveal the exact date of the operation to Mannerheim. They did, however, require that Finland intervene as soon as 24 hours after Germany had invaded.
Mobilisation was declared as planned on June 15th, and the Finnish Army started to slowly reinforce its positions along the border, leaving the Northern part of the front to the Germans. On June 21st, Finland occupied the demilitarised Aland Islands, and began laying mines in the Gulf of Leningrad.

On June 22nd, Operation Barbarossa started, though Finnish troops did not move, not wanting to be seen as the aggressors in this war. The German Mountain troops quickly occupied Petsamo, and the Soviets had to react. Having had put their forces further from the border in an effort to dissuade the Finno-German rapprochement, the Soviets now brought their forces back, which was confirmed by aerial reconnaissance. Not only that, but the Soviets struck at Finnish targets only three hours after the start of Operation Barbarossa.

This was enough for Mannerheim, who declared a state of war between the Soviet Union and Finland at 10:00 on June 22nd, and the Finnish Parliament thus talked of a “Defensive War”. According to plans drawn up as early as February, Finnish troops penetrated into a largely undefended Soviet territory in both Karelia and Ladoga, and immediately encircled the naval base of Hanko.

Initial Finnish advances were made quickly. By June 29th, the Finnish Army had already reached the shores of Lake Ladoga, splitting the Soviet 7th Army down the middle. Likewise, to the east, Finnish forces had liberated Salla and pushed towards the Kirov railway. These actions prompted the Soviet high command to scramble and send any available units on the Finnish border to contain the advance, but this suddenly coincided with the Finno-German Northern army corps starting to move from Petsamo towards Murmansk.

Hampered by logistics, though, this advance bogged down. The Soviets locked the access to Murmansk and the German mountaineers could hardly go further than the Rybachy Peninsula. Over the course of the months of August and September, these mountain troops would eventually reach the Litsa river, but failed to obtain a bridgehead due to strained logistics and lack of manpower.

It was towards the south, where the Germans of the 6th SS Mountain Division pushed with the Finnish 6th and 9th Divisions, that things were much more interesting. Having liberated Salla, these forces dashed east through mostly undefended territory, more hampered by logistics than anything else. Lack of coordination in the Soviet forces meant that several units were sent in one at a time, and were easy pickings for the Germano-Finns, who pushed them towards the lakes, encircling and reducing them one pocket at a time, such as at Kayraly and Alakurti. Likewise, the anti-tank guns of the 6th SS Mountaineers were very useful in knocking out the machines of the 1st Tank Division which had been tasked with protecting the road axis to Kantalahti (Kandalakcha). And although the Germans took most of the credit, it was the Finns who made most of the progress, since the SS were unaccustomed to Arctic warfare.

Supported by the III Army Corps to the south, the Finnish troops reached the Kestenga-Nyamozero line by the beginning of August, and advanced towards the Kirov railway. With their objective in sight, the Germans did their utmost to support the Finns with what they had. Although the SS hadn’t acclimatized yet, their equipment proved deadly and allowed the Finns to clear the armored vanguards of the 1st Tank Division, seriously threatening the Kirov railway. By the end of August, Finnish troops had advanced to Sosnovy and were approaching Lukhy.

This prompted the Soviets to ask the United States to intervene. While Britain had declared war on Finland almost as soon as Finnish troops crossed the border, the neutral United States still wished for Finland to stay out of the war. However, Mannerheim did not yield to American pressure. With outstanding successes, he asked to relay an offer to the Soviet Union: the pre-Winter War borders in exchange for Finland withdrawing from the war. Of course, Stalin rejected this outright, with copious insults towards the Finns…and the Americans for having dared to relay this folly! It is said that these insults were why the Americans did not threaten Finland too much more… [1]

With this in mind, the Finns launched an offensive towards the railway, now hoping to draw the Soviets to the negotiating table. This offensive was clearly aimed at taking Lukhy and cutting the Kirov railway. The Soviets had reinforced this axis, but the Finns had also abandoned their race towards Kandalakcha and rerouted Finnish and German units from the area to aid in the assault. The Germans were all the more eager as they realized the strategic implications of such an assault. It took a long two weeks, but on October 5th, 1941, Lukhy would fall and the Kirov railway found itself cut. The 6th SS Mountain Division spared no time in reinforcing their position around the city, and withdrew their forces towards Nyamozero in the northern area.

The fall of Lukhy came as a shock for the Soviet authorities, but it was hardly the only one by this point. In the south, the Finns had pressed on their offensive and liberated Viipuri by August 18th, though most Soviet forces trapped in the city had managed to evacuate by sea. The Finns then resumed their advance southwards, pushing the Soviets past the old Winter War borders and right to the edge of Leningrad, reaching the suburbs of Sertolovo and Toksovo. However, IV Corps was ordered to stop their offensive. Mannerheim was not willing to sacrifice Finnish troops to capture the city, though he would soon have a change of heart…

Instead, Finnish forces initially pushed into Karelia. From the end of August onwards, two entire Finnish corps broke through the Soviet defenses and took Tuloska, launching themselves at the assault of the shocked Soviets. In this country of lakes, most Soviet forces were overrun or destroyed as they often ran into lakes during their retreat, suffering from poor organisation and overall gaps in communication. This allowed the Finns to rush to the Svir and reach Lake Onega on September 3rd.

The Finnish VI Corps then advanced south of the Svir river, advancing as far as Pasha and Oshta before being stopped by logistical constraints. In fact, the Finnish high command had no intention on really advancing past the Svir river as it would mean spreading their forces too thin. Meanwhile, other Finnish forces pressed on and encircled Pryazha, cutting the road to Petrozavodsk. Determined resistance from the Soviet forces slowed the Finnish advance, forcing them to proceed methodically, only encircling the town on September 16th. The Finnish 1st Division would clean up the town, where a number of Soviet forces had been encircled, finally taking it on September 23rd.

From then, the Finnish offensive in Karelia stalled. Throughout October, Finnish forces sought to secure the shores of Lake Onega, capturing Kondopoga, Porosozero and finally Medvezhyegorsk on October 23rd. Subsequent operations saw the Finnish forces advancing prudently at the edge of their logistical lines, first of all advancing towards Povenets in the freezing cold, before blowing up the locks of the Stalin canal. With the advent of winter, Finnish troops were ordered to dig in and halt offensive operations in Karelia. Overall, this was a massive victory for the Axis as the Murmask railway was cut in several places: Lukhy, Medvezhyegorsk, Petrozavodsk and the Svir.

This was not the full extent of Finnish operations, though. Hanko, the Soviet naval base, had been surrounded in the first days of the war by Finnish troops. In addition, minefields had been set up around the base, but a blockade had been ineffective due to the size of the Finnish navy. Hanko however still needed to be reduced, as its approaches guarded the entryway into Helsinki. The Finns had to wait for the Germans to push forwards in the Baltic States to finally spring into action.

On October 16th, a German task force led by the battleship Tirpitz met with a Finnish task force led by the coastal defence ship Ilmarinen. This one was to lead the German group through the minefields near the Aland Islands, turning towards Hanko. In fact, the operation came to intercept the first Soviet evacuation convoys. With the Siege of Leningrad demanding every man the Soviets could spare, Hanko had been deemed useless and needed to be evacuated. However, the Finns saw the concentration of naval assets ready to sortie, and initiated “Operation Tiger”. Tiger had been a plan established with the Kriegsmarine in order to destroy the Soviet Baltic Fleet and the forces at Hanko back in February 1941.

As such, on this day in October, the Germans were ready. The Soviet transports were of course not alone, but the Soviet escort was nowhere near sufficient. Three Soviet destroyers were sunk by naval gunfire for the loss of the lone German destroyer Z-27, while the old battleship Marat would lose its duel with the much heavier Tirpitz, soon joining its escorts at the bottom of the Baltic. In addition to these losses, the Soviets would lose a further two destroyers to air attacks in the following hours, along with numerous submarines. The convoy that tried to run to Leningrad was ripped to shreds by the Germano-Finnish force and the Luftwaffe.

The disaster of October 16th would be the first and last naval engagement involving the Soviet Navy, which already had been mauled during the evacuation of Tallinn two months earlier. A few days later, the cruiser Kirov was knocked out in Leningrad by German bombers, rendering any sortie too risky to attempt. Instead, submarines and fast craft would evacuate the defenders of Hanko, who would be regularly pummelled by the guns of the German and Finnish ships. In all, once the fortress finally surrendered, only 7,000 troops had made it to Leningrad out of the 30,000 present at the beginning of the siege.
However, Finnish leadership, despite these victories, became weary. Germany had not won the war, and had hardly even reached Moscow, let alone the Baku oil fields. As such, Mannerheim and the Finnish leadership were now starting to look for a way out. They were careful in making no statements about Greater Finland, and always kept the door open to negotiations. The American embassy in Helsinki became one of the busiest spots, and the Finns tried their hardest to make the Americans interfere: if they could guarantee a peace treaty, Finland could withdraw from the war with their gains intact.

But soon, Mannerheim came to realize that Stalin wasn’t exactly a man you could negotiate with. Finland had been annoying for now, and other than cutting the Kirov railway, had not done any major stings to the Soviets. As such, Mannerheim swapped his strategy. If he could not force the Soviets to make peace by being cautious, he would need to gain something worthy of being traded for. And there, he was not lacking in choices. All he had to do was choose: Murmansk, or Leningrad?


[1] With the northern front going a lot better, Stalin is more on edge and slips up. As a result, the Americans don’t threaten Finland as much as they did in OTL and it allows the Finns to be more aggressive.
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"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
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DMZ



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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 07, 2024 08:32    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Quelques remarques :

Petsamo avait été rendue aux Finlandais après le traité de paix de Moscou donc dire que les Allemands l'occupent n'est pas clair.

Il me semble que c'était le gouvernement et non Mannerheim qui s'occupait de la politique, en particulier des discussions avec Moscou.

Le Tirpitz dans les eaux resserrées et archi minées du Golfe de Finlande ? C'est chaud ! La moindre attaque aérienne soviétique risque de faire très mal. Il serait étonnant que rien ne soit monté à partir de Hanko.
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loic
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 07, 2024 08:48    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Citation:
With the northern front going a lot better,

Pour quelle raison ?
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loic
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 07, 2024 08:58    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

OTL, l'Ilmarinen est coulé le 13 septembre lors de l'opération contre Saaremaa et Hiiumaa. Il a heurté une ou deux mines.
On peut remplacer par son jumeau, le Väinämöinen.
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 07, 2024 09:45    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

loic a écrit:
OTL, l'Ilmarinen


Ilmarinen, j'adore ce personnage des légendes scandinaves. C'est un géant doué pour la forge, il a construit plusieurs des objets légendaires qui apparaissent dans les sagas, dont Sampo le moulin capble de broyer le grain comme les métaux.
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