Fantasque Time Line

[Wings]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/into-the-fire-an-alternate-ww2-tl.547673/#post-24630615

J'ai fait ma version (en anglais) qui peut donc complémenter celle de DMZ.
Preneur de retours si vous en avez!
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II

[DMZ]

Démarrer en 1929, on va gagner du temps !

Ça pose toutefois plusieurs problèmes :
- Le Béarn n'est en service actif que depuis un an, il est clairement un navire expérimental (et compté comme tel au regard du Traité de Washington) et sa vitesse est celle des cuirassés de l'époque, les problèmes ne sont pas encore réellement posés ou identifiés. Plutôt mentionner le caractère expérimental et dire que les premiers retours opérationnels sont encourageants et qu'il serait opportun d'en profiter au plus tôt.
- Les autres coques de la série Normandie sont déjà condamnées, voire en cours de démolition, il est peu probable que leur réemploi soit évoqué, si ce n'est pour dire qu'on aurait pu le faire mais que c'est tout bonnement impossible.
- Le Traité de Londres n'a pas encore commencé à être négocié, la limite des 10.000 tW est toujours applicable aux porte-avions, de plus, l'Algérie n'est pas encore sur cale et donc les plans de sa coque de 185,70 m ne sont probablement encore que dans les limbes, Louis Kahn aura certainement choisi de rester dans cette limite donc pour un déplacement à pleine charge de 13.000 t, le Commandant Teste, en somme. Après, on peut avoir une évolution vers un navire plus grand en parallèle du développement de l'Algérie et de l'avancement des discussions à Londres, c'est à dire à partir de décembre. Avec une anticipation car l'Algérie était à 10.000 tW et en "gonflant" un peu la coque en largeur, Georges Leygues pourra toujours prétendre qu'elle respecte la limitation jusqu'au moment où ce ne sera plus nécessaire : à l'annonce du lancement de la classe, en août 1940, le Traité de Londres est signé depuis plus de six mois.
- Bouvines ? Tu vas fâcher les Anglais... J'aurais bien vu Dixmude, le dirigeable a disparu en 1923.

Mais faisons abstraction de ça, je suis curieux de voir où tu vas nous mener.
_________________
« Vi offro fame, sete, marce forzate, battaglia e morte. » « Je vous offre la faim, la soif, la marche forcée, la bataille et la mort. » Giuseppe Garibaldi

[DMZ]

Ah ! Et si tu veux monter en puissance dans les opérations combinées, n'oublie pas qu'il avait été demandé de motoriser les chalands de débarquement utilisés lors de ces manœuvres, ce qui ne fut jamais fait. Alors peut-être pas en 1931 dans cette TL mais en 35-36, pourquoi pas. Une petite série d'une douzaine de barges équipées de moteur par l'arsenal de Lorient, ça pourrait changer bien des choses à Narvik ou ailleurs.
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« Vi offro fame, sete, marce forzate, battaglia e morte. » « Je vous offre la faim, la soif, la marche forcée, la bataille et la mort. » Giuseppe Garibaldi

[Archibald]

Vraiment bien - very fine. You flirt with my (unworkable) idea and then go in a different - and probably better - direction.

Are your carriers derived from Cdt Teste or Algérie ? (like the DMZ TL)

Thank you both, now I can see why the "2nd Bearn / 2nd Normandie" scenario doesn't work.

- Money
- Bearn flaws are seen too late (a few years after its 1928 IOC)
- And after the Normandie hulls are either scrapped or rusted

Better ideas
- try Cdt Teste hull instead
- try Algérie hull instead
- if you really want a better Bearn, screw old Normandie hulls: go PA-1 to PA-4 designs

By the way... Tzoli has a fantastic list, right there.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-aircraft-carrier-never-were-designs-and-proposals.35123/#post-410859

The whole thread is worth reading.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-aircraft-carrier-never-were-designs-and-proposals.35123/

L'ami Clausewitz, qui est membre de ce forum, avait fait une série de posts sur les P.As français...

https://forummarine.forumactif.com/t4793-des-limbes-de-l-histoire-2-les-porte-avions

https://forummarine.forumactif.com/t4805p1-france-porte-avions-bearn
_________________
Sergueï Lavrov: "l'Ukraine subira le sort de l'Afghanistan" - Moi: ah ouais, comme en 1988.
...
"C'est un asile de fous; pas un asile de cons. Faudrait construire des asiles de cons mais - vous imaginez un peu la taille des bâtiments..."

[Heorl]

[fhaessig]

[Wings]

[Wings]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/into-the-fire-an-alternate-ww2-tl.547673/#post-24632668

Chapitre 2!
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II

[loic]

Good job!

Trois remarques quand même :
- en 1929, les projets de LN 401, Late 298 et SB2U n'existent pas et les réflexions sont sans doute balbutiantes. La note [3] devrait dire quelque chose comme "ce qui conduira quelques années plus tard aux LN 401, Late 298 (1938) et SB2U Vindicator".
- les torpilleurs et contre-torpilleurs français ont un handicap sérieux : leur manque d'autonomie, ce qui rend compliqué une mission de chasse aux corsaires allemands.
- la perte du Deutschland pourrait changer les choses pour celle du Graf Spee.
_________________
On ne trébuche pas deux fois sur la même pierre (proverbe oriental)
En principe (moi) ...

[Wings]

[Wings]

Chapitre 3! Je prends si vous avez des retours.

Chapter 3: The Mechelen Incident

January 1940

As the Western front settled into what would be known as the “Phony War”, an incident would disturb the relative tranquillity of the area.
On January 10th, 1940, two Belgian border guards, Frans Habets and Gerard Rubens, were doing their rounds on bicycles around the town of Maasmechelen, when, on a farm patch, they observed something fishy. There was a fire emanating from the bushes. Both border guards went to investigate, when they discovered two German officers desperately trying to burn documents, their crashed plane almost right behind them! Rubens immediately stamped out the fire, while Habets apprehended one of the Germans who had tried to flee.

Both Germans were taken to the border post at Mechelen-aan-de-Maas, where they were interrogated by Captain Arthur Rodrique. On sight of the documents, one of the guards, a retired Belgian Army corporal, immediately called the Belgian Headquarters in Liege, and warned that the documents the Germans were carrying could be of primordial importance. Rodrique agrees, and locks up the documents before going to interrogate the Germans, while waiting for competent authorities [1].
Immediately, Belgian intelligence grasped the gravity of what they had found: the invasion plans for their country just a week from now! Immediately, these documents were forwarded to Belgian Military Intelligence, where they were sent up to general Raoul Van Overstraeten, the King’s chief of staff, general Henri Denis, Minister of Defence, and King Leopold III himself.

After deliberation, those three decided that these documents were unlikely to be part of a deception operation [2]. These were then forwarded to Maurice Gamelin, Queen Wilhelmina, and Lord Gort [3]. King Leopold also personally phoned Princess Juliana of the Netherlands and Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg that an invasion may be imminent.

While the French disregarded the plan as a deception, Gamelin sought to use it as a pretext to allow French troops into the country in order to put “his” Dyle plan into place. As such, he immediately ordered the 1st and 3rd Armies to move immediately towards the Belgian border.
For the Belgians, the crisis was worsening. Colonel Goethals, military attaché in Berlin, confirmed via a trusted source that these papers were authentic and pertained to a German attack on Belgium [4].

The Dutch for their part sought to confirm the information through their own attaché, who also confirmed these plans. Despite their scepticism, they do take precautions by making sure to accelerate fortifications along the “Vesting Holland” [5].

King Leopold, for his part, decided to go over the head of his generals and warn Churchill himself, via the First Lord of the Admiralty, Sir Roger Keyes. In a massive inter-allied communications blunder, however, Keyes added that he thought Leopold would immediately allow Allied troops into Belgium, which led Gamelin to take it as a fact.

On January 14th, Gamelin got ready to march into Belgium, before being stopped by Alphonse Georges, his deputy, who was worried about the lack of the Belgian direct offer to move into Belgium, and that a movement of French troops into Belgium could be seen as a declaration of war. Gamelin berated him, and decided to move in anyways [6].

However, this order was once more stopped as the Belgian border guards refused to move border obstacles and had been told that they were to “not allow any foreign force into the Belgian borders”. On January 15th, the Belgian government finally came to a consensus. While the invasion scare was very real, they also would reject any French intervention in their country until the Germans themselves had been invaded.

Gamelin was outraged, but, as it turned out, the Germans themselves had called off the invasion.
However, Denis and Van Overstraeten were both shaken by this incident. After once again calling Goethals, on the 18th, they came to the consensus that, if Germany was to invade France, it certainly wasn’t going to be through the Maginot. After all, they had all seen the disastrous attempt at breaching a fortified line just a few months earlier [7].

With this, Denis and Van Overstraeten went to the King, asking for a partial mobilization of Belgian forces. To them, war was inevitable, and the Germans would strike at Belgium. King Leopold III dragged his feet, not wanting to commit to such an order. So, in its place, Denis and Van Overstraeten proposed to “invite France and the United Kingdom to guarantee the independence of the Kingdom of Belgium by positioning troops in the country to avoid unfortunate incidents”. Such statements could have been considered treason, but to Leopold, it made him livid. There was no question of opening Belgium to foreigners!

As such, Leopold finally signed off on the order. The Belgian population would be partially mobilized, and two new defence lines would be able to be reinforced, along the Schelde and Escault. General Denis also put in place a plan for a full mobilization when (and not if!) Germany invaded Belgian territory, so that the nation could be immediately prepared for war.

Denis also transmitted the layout of the Belgian forces to the French, through a trusted subordinate, Jules Pire, who would later see fame for becoming the leader of the Free Belgian Forces, after the Fall of Belgium. With this information, Gamelin could thus plan an intervention of his forces without having to ask where Belgian forces had been stationed, which would save valuable time when the invasion came.

Taking a similar path, Luxembourg also issued partial mobilization, but also refused entry to French forces. Arrangements were made for Grand Duchess Charlotte to be evacuated to France or England should the need arise, along with her government.

As for Gamelin, during this time, he pondered over his failure at Saarbrucken. Determined that a war of attrition would be the way to go, he put all of his effort into the Dyle Plan, which would bleed out the German army, and the means to achieve it. He paid little attention to his subordinates, like Alphonse Georges or Charles Huntziger, who were desperately trying to learn from the mistakes of the Saar offensive. The equipment of radios and fluidifying of the chain of command, notably, were focuses of theirs. And while their work would bear some fruit, it would not save France, in those fateful months of Summer 1940. Despite the heroics of the French army and the miracles that it pulled off, twice saving the country from disaster, the changes came too late, and Gamelin would be the first to pay the price.

[1] Small deviation from OTL, where the documents were placed in front of the Germans during the interrogation, which allowed Major Reinberger, the one responsible for carrying these plans, to destroy some of them.
[2] As OTL.
[3] Commander in chief of the French forces, Queen of the Netherlands, Commander of the BEF, respectively.
[4] After the war, this source was revealed to be the Dutch military attaché, Gijsbertus Sas, who himself got it from Hans Oster.
[5] Not OTL. Here they do ask Sas, who confirms the information as legitimate.
[6] As OTL!
[7] Not OTL. Here Denis and Van Overstraeten are much more worried about the German strategy, and are pretty sure that a German invasion is imminent due to Gamelin’s failed attack on the Westwall.
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II

[JPBWEB]

Jules Piron, plutot que Jules Pire.

Schelde et Escaut (sans "l"), c'est la meme chose dans deux langues differentes. Et en anglais, on ecrit plutot Scheldt.
_________________
"L'histoire est le total des choses qui auraient pu être évitées"
Konrad Adenauer

[Wings]

[JPBWEB]

[Wings]

Chapitre 4!

Chapter 4: The war goes north

January – April 1940

After the swift victory in Poland and the failed French invasion of the Saar, Hitler turned his gaze northwards, towards Denmark and Norway. To the German high command, control of the iron ore supply was essential, just like denying bases to the British along the eastern coast of the North Sea.

This operation, placed under the command of Nikolaus von Falkenhorst, would be the greatest undertaking of the Kriegsmarine since the First World War. The Naval branch of the German armed forces would indeed have to transport most of the troops to be landed, especially near Narvik and Trondheim, so as to completely surprise the Norwegian defenders.

Paratroopers would also be used against targets in the south of the country, airfields, and Oslo. Denmark would for its part be the task of the ground forces, which should have no issue in overrunning the small Scandinavian nation.

In February, preliminaries to the Norwegian campaign started as the German tanker Altmark, carrying 299 prisoners of war captured by the Graf Spee, passed through Norwegian waters. Although this was not illegal in itself, the Norwegian armed forces did fully reserve the right to inspect the vessel, and the Norwegian government had banned the transfer of POWs through their country.

The Altmark did indeed undergo several of those inspections on February 15th, first off Linesoya, by the torpedo boat HNoMS Trygg, which found nothing suspicious. A second inspection came when the tanker approached the Sognefjord, and was boarded by officers of the HNoMS Snogg. During the inspection, one of the officers, hearing banging noises from the hold, asked to inspect that area of the vessel, which the first inspection had failed to do [1].

The Germans initially declined, which eventually led to a scuffle. The boarding party suffered 2 killed, whilst the Germans counted 4. Having asked for backup, the tanker was eventually brought to heel and forcefully towed into Dragsvik. There, the British prisoners were freed, with Admiral Carsten Tank-Nielsen immediately calling for a Royal Navy vessel to come pick them up. The Altmark was seized, and put into Norwegian service as the tanker Brokkr.

As the destroyer HMS Cossack came to Dragsvik to pick up the British sailors, Germany was furious and sent a strong protest to Oslo, which was quickly rebuffed. The German sailors had lied about the nature of their cargo, and by international law, Norway was in its full rights to seize the vessel.

This incident also led to a heightened sense of security within the Norwegian war apparatus. Twice in March, Norwegian intelligence received warnings about an upcoming invasion [2]. However, the tipping point came on March 31st, when the Swedish military attaché to Berlin, Curt Dannfelt-Juhlin, received a report from Swedish sailors that Germans were loading troops in their Baltic ports. After contacting several “friends”, Dannfelt-Juhlin confirmed that these troops were indeed preparing a “peacekeeping mission” in Norway and Denmark [3].

Dannfelt-Juhlin immediately transmitted this to the Norwegian government, and to the chief of staff of the Norwegian forces, Kristian Laake. Immediately, the government took this seriously. After the Altmark incident, the more and more aggressive stance of the German government, and the repeated warnings sent to the intelligence services…it was time to act.

As a first step, it is agreed that all anti-air and coastal artillery batallions must be activated and placed on high alert. The Navy must mine the accesses to the fjords…but nothing else. So far, this could still be a great deception or bluff. Still, Nygaardsvold’s government decides to take its precautions. The Norwegian intelligence services are solicited to arrest any Nazi sympathizers in the country. On April 1st, Vidkun Quisling would find himself in an Oslo prison cell. Defence minister Ljungberg is also asked to reinforce protection of the mobilisation depots, but no mobilization order is issued, and none of this crucial information is passed on to the Allies.

On April 3rd, convoy vessels started leaving German ports, leading the Allied submarines to make their own screen in the Kattegat, prompting the British to launch Operation Wilfried: the Allied intervention in Norway. Immediately, a force under Admiral William Whitworth is sent, with the battleship HMS Renown as flagship. The carriers HMS Furious and Verdun are also put on high alert.

On April 6th, another warning came from Berlin. The head of Swedish military intelligence, Colonel Carlos Adlercreutz, warns his Norwegian and Danish counterparts that an invasion of Denmark and Norway is imminent.

Both countries immediately react to this information. Danish battalions are placed on maximum alert, and border obstacles are put on the German-Danish border. A few anti-tank guns are also placed there, while the bridges linking the Danish isles are mined. Additionally, all vessels of the Danish Navy are placed on maximum alert.

As for the Norwegians, Nygaardsvold immediately calls upon Ljungberg to call for a partial mobilization order, which is done by noon…but the instructions have to be carried out by mail! Nygaardsvold also warns the King, Haakon VII, before 2PM, and contacts the British and French embassies, asking for support in case of a German invasion. This information is immediately sent to London and Paris.

On April 7th, as if a forewarning of things to come, the weather conditions deteriorate, causing heavy swells in the Norwegian Sea. In the Renown force, the HMS Glowworm has to drop out of formation to search for a sailor swept overboard.

But if the weather does shield most of the German force, it does not stop them from being spotted around 0800 by RAF patrols. However, due to the strict application of radio silence, the finding would not be reported until 1730.

The British admiralty, thinking that the move is a new attempt at the Kriegsmarine to break out into the Atlantic to attack their shipping, immediately send out Home Fleet to intercept that evening, while the Verdun group would stay in Scapa Flow for the moment. At the same moment, landing ships are brought from France to Liverpool, then to Scapa.

On April 8th, the Glowworm manages to find two German destroyers, which it pursues…and runs into the German cruiser Admiral Hipper, which makes quick work of the poor British destroyer. The Glowworm does manage to utter a distress signal before ramming the cruiser, leading to some leaks in the German behemoth. Glowworm’s distress signal will prompt the admiralty to send the Renown force towards the destroyer’s last reported position.

Later that morning, the Polish submarine ORP Orzel sinks the troop transport Rio de Janeiro, and picks up a handful of survivors, mostly in German uniform. Some of these survivors will also be picked up by the destroyer HNoMS Odin. These will be interrogated and inform the Norwegians that they were tasked with “protecting Bergen from the British”. The Odin’s transmission will reach the Admiralty around 1300, but that is not the only worrying news.

Indeed, first thing in the morning, Horst Rossing, German military attaché in Helsinki, visits Gustaf von Stedingk, his Swedish counterpart, to inform him that a German invasion of Norway and Denmark is imminent but that Sweden and Finland’s neutrality will be respected. Von Stedingk immediately informs Gunther, the Swedish foreign minister, who passes it on to the Norwegian and Danish embassies.

For Copenhagen, the warning will come a little late, but for Oslo, there is still time. After this information is sent through the proper channels, and the increasingly worrying situation, notably in regards to reports coming from the Navy, Nygaardsvold meets with the King, and agrees to declare total mobilization. The order leaves at 1330 hours from Oslo, and by the end of the afternoon, the whole country is gearing up for war.

But while Norway gears up for war, the British still think that the Germans are attempting a breakout, as by 1400, the RAF discovers a Kriegsmarine force off Trondheim, moving west. The British immediately order most of Home Fleet to ditch their cargo and regroup with the Renown force to intercept this movement. This idea will soon lose in weight as many reports will start coming that evening of large amounts of German ships around the Skagerrak.

At 2300, the patrol vessel HNoMS Pol III is engaged by a Kriegsmarine force off of the Oslofjord, and sunk after ramming the torpedo boat Albatros.

At midnight, the Norwegian cabinet calls for an emergency meeting, in the presence of the commander-in-chief of the Norwegian forces, Kristian Laake. This one confirms that total mobilization has been issued and that every single coastal battery from Kirkenes to Fredrikstad is on full alert. Laake says that in total, the Norwegian army currently fields 60,000 men and he hopes to reach 116,000 by April 14th.

At 0415 on April 9th, the German cruiser Blücher enters the Oslofjord.


[1] Yes, despite the British prisoners repeatedly making their presence known, the Norwegians just took the Germans at their word. But all it takes is one cautious officer…
[2] Relayed by…Hans Oster, who was once more ignored.
[3] All of this is OTL.
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II